Bibby in 'I've got a Basso coat' shocker!

[nicecupoftea]

I don't mean to get too political on a craft forum but I was very surprised yesterday when Dawn (the animal lover) confessed to owning a Dennis Basso coat. She even went on to extol the virtues of it. I wonder if she knows that it wouldn't be a good idea to introduce some of her dogs to him...

[Jeanette]

That does surprise me too

[Pam]

Me too.

Does she know? She must know mustn't she?

[Rentochops]

Shame on her wearing that butcher's coats - perhaps she doesn't know about his real business, a lot of people don't in the UK.

[blarf]

I don't want to seem controversial here, it's a genuine question. Doesn't he only use farmed fur? And if so, how is that different to wearing leather or eating meat? And where do you draw the line?
(I do think the man is repulsive so I wouldn't wear his stuff but in spite of myself I think it looks nice).

[Pam]

I think his 'methods' are a lot worse than that Sammy. Can't post anymore as it sickens me.

There were a lot of posts on Shoppingtelly about it, but were lost when it crashed.

[nicecupoftea]

I don't want to seem controversial here, it's a genuine question. Doesn't he only use farmed fur? And if so, how is that different to wearing leather or eating meat? And where do you draw the line?
(I do think the man is repulsive so I wouldn't wear his stuff but in spite of myself I think it looks nice).


I think it's the use of Broadtail, which is the fur of unborn lambs, that makes him particularly replusive.

On the subject of Dawn Bibby having a Basso coat I was surprised for her to mention it as so many people boycott QVC because they sell Basso's range. So, from a PR point of value I think she may him just lost a number of fans and sales.

[LorraineJ]

She must know, either that or she is blinkered, or heavily tied in with contracts. Either that or she does not care, ie not the animal lover she professes to be. Personally I find Basso frightening, maybe doing the man an injustice but he comes over as a genial thug.

[Dips]

Perhaps we should all drop her an email expressing our dispappointment and surprise that, as a confessed animal lover, that she could support the activities of such a vile man? I'll certainly be sending one to Topaz.

[Phree]

I don't want to seem controversial here, it's a genuine question. Doesn't he only use farmed fur? And if so, how is that different to wearing leather or eating meat? And where do you draw the line?
(I do think the man is repulsive so I wouldn't wear his stuff but in spite of myself I think it looks nice).

Perhaps this will answer your question :

We (and by this I mean the western world) eat mainly cattle, sheep and pigs, we farm them so we can eat them. Humans are naturally omniverous therefore meat is an appropriate element to our diet.

If therefore we are going to farm such animals in order that we may eat, it seems to me that it justfies the slaughter of these animals more fully if we utilise as much as possible from each one - ie their hides to make leather goods or in the case of sheep sheepskin jackets etc. If we all chose not to eat meat where do you think you would have to go in order to see a cow or a sheep? Your nearest zoo most likely.

However we do not eat minks or other exotic creatures which is why leather as well as fur from exotic specimens is abhorent - ie snakeskin, crocodile etc. Certainly we need to keep warm, however there are other perfectly efficient ways of clothing ourselves for the protection we need from the elements.

If we ate snakes and mink etc then perhaps the utilisation of their hides to manufacture clothing, bags, footwear etc would be acceptable, but as we only raise and slaughter them for their skins then I am afraid that to me this is unacceptable.

On a footnote, I used to work in an abattoir - in the office, however I could see the animals arriving, and it was the concept of "if we didn't eat them, they would not even be born and only a handful would live in zoos" that allowed me to accept what I was seeing, that and the fact I do like a nice bit of lamb with mint sauce.

[LorraineJ]

You can eat snake, they do in China (very poisonous ones), but its not something I'd fancy myself, despite hating snakes. Snakes are fairly abundant, so I'd say each to their own.

Likewise I can't get excited about crocodiles, if someone wants a crocodile handbag, boots or bag I haven't a problem because they aren't endangered. Crocodiles have become a real problem in Darwin harbour, as they are breeding too readily and their natural habitat has become a lot larger, these reptiles are killed anyway so why not utilise their skins? You can eat croc, but its not something I fancy.

What I object to is the manner in which some of these animals are killed. Some species such as the tiger have been hunted to the brink of extinction, in the early years, you weren't a man until you had shot a tiger.

Animals that were killed years ago are dead, killed by people that knew no different. In our enlightened times, its fine to emulate these beautiful creatures by synthetic means, but the coats would look better covering a living, breathing model as nature intended than some rich *****.

[mermaid]

I was also shocked when DB said this. I'm sure she has mentioned being a veggie. Can't quite see how that sits with supporting this evil man's trade.......

[gill71]

I do not wish this to become a conflict on craft telly but, seriously, this is a very serious animal welfare topic.
I understand most of us choose to eat meat but to actually wear them as some form of trophy (not purely to keep warm, there are lots of alternative materials) and fashion statement! It is absolutely abhorent.
There was a program on TV a couple of weeks ago about the way they obtain the fur. I won't repeat some of the images which were shown, it is just too upsetting. I had to stop watching the program in the end.
Basso is a butcher and actually makes me feel sick.
I do hope Dawn Bibby spoke those words in ignorance of his practices 'back home.'
I will go now, getting too angry I'm afraid.

[kriskros]

Not really entering into the argument for or against but didn't DB say that it was faux fur inside a coat that she had. Do not know anything about Basso.

[LorraineJ]

Not really entering into the argument for or against but didn't DB say that it was faux fur inside a coat that she had. Do not know anything about Basso.

Fully understand where you are coming from Kriskros and this is not a criticism of you.

For sometime on Craft telly's sister channel Shopping Telly, people including the site owner have indicated their outrage at Dennis Basso's other business, making money out of animals suffering and very often dying horribly just to satisfy a trade in real fur. Discussions became very heated and images appeared of what happens when these animals are killed. TBH its my opinion that should this discussion escalate it does so on Shopping Telly, as our age range on here does include some that would find being exposed to such images traumatising (being very young) and apart from that we are supposed to enjoy craft first and foremost.

[Rentochops]

Fully understand where you are coming from Kriskros and this is not a criticism of you.

For sometime on Craft telly's sister channel Shopping Telly, people including the site owner have indicated their outrage at Dennis Basso's other business, making money out of animals suffering and very often dying horribly just to satisfy a trade in real fur. Discussions became very heated and images appeared of what happens when these animals are killed. TBH its my opinion that should this discussion escalate it does so on Shopping Telly, as our age range on here does include some that would find being exposed to such images traumatising (being very young) and apart from that we are supposed to enjoy craft first and foremost.

I agree with you Lorriaine, let's just hope Dawn reads this and thinks again, I think we lost Leonie P during the crash, but maybe she is reading this.

[blarf]

Oh the unborn lamb thing is gross. I agree that some of these practices are vile and there are perfectly good faux furs so the use of real fur is unneccessary as is testing cosmetics on animals.

However, I don't have an issue with farmed fur especially, as you know we force female cattle to have calves so we can milk them in this country, do we eat the veal? No! (I know there are several chefs on a mission on this subject at the moment).

I do tend to be on the liberal side of this debate though as I'm a scientist and have to support animal testing for pharmaceuticals and unfortunately, a lot of the animal rights people can't make the distinction.

[Phree]

I doubt if many of us have issues with the controlled testing of pharmaceuticals on animals. Provide of course that it is done as humanely as possible and that the animals kept correctly. How many diabetics owe their lives to the testing of insulin on dogs for example.

However I can't agree about farming animals soley for their fur in order to make status symbol garments for the wealthy. While farming for food is neccessary in order to feed us, farming these creatures simply to harvest their fur so vain human's can think they look good is hardly any better than sticking chemicals into rabbit's eyes to find out if the latest pretty colour of eyeshadow will cause a bad reaction.

On top of this there are no guarantee's that fur harvested in this manner comes from animals kept in humane conditions. Unfortunately we don't rule the world, only our own small corner of it. The UK has laws pertaining to the care of animals, other countries do not and in the fashion industry where the $ is god....

Anyhow.... nuff said by me.

[Craftyktee]

Mmm, I do eat meat & poultry. But I have 4 pet rabbits that are my babies; I would never eat rabbit now though in the past I have. I think if people are hungry enough and they cannot afford to feed their family without rabbit then I do not judge. I would love to be vegetarian; but I love bacon & chicken; think I could do without beef. I think we live in an age with new fabrics that we do not need to slaughter animals for 'Fashion.' I was going to order a coat from this man on QVC but so glad I didn't, I read about his other business and was so relieved I didn't!

[Julie]

I think its great we can have have a healthy debate on here regarding issues apart from Craft.

I am a huge advocate for animal rights but maybe come at it from a slightly different angle.

All I care about is the welfare of the animal when it is alive, should be well fed, as free as possible from stress and not factory farmed, should also be transported to its end and slaughtered in the most humane way possible.

I would never wear fur but I think its a bit too easy to become moralistic. How many people bang on about Basso (who I think is vile) but buy cheap leather handbags where the chances are the hides are from China, where the animal will have lived in abject misery for most its life, then put to it's death in a dreadful way, just so someone can have a £50 handbag.

Similarly people who buy cheap chickens which will also have suffered from day 1.

Sometimes the debate gets a bit simplified.

It's not really about which creature it is, it's about the treatment that it has to endure at the hands of man.

[Shepherdess]

Furriers don't just use the animals you expect them to use i.e. mink, fox etc. some of them also use domestic dog and cat fur which I'm sure nobody on here would approve of.
I haven't bought anything from QVC for a long time now and won't until they get rid of that horrid creepy man.

[LorraineJ]

I am not advocating that this issue does not get discussed at all, but ask that no images appear to illustrate a person's argument. The reasoning behind this, is that this site is moderatorless and if such images would appear that appeared distasteful, they'd have to PM Graham and all this would take time. I am also mindful that some of our members are very young or their children look at the site and may find such photographs very upsetting.

I think its a matter of a personal choice and would rather buy meat from a source I can be reasonably sure the animal died humanely, though with the current credit squeeze people may have this idealogy but their purse dictates something different.

[blarf]

I agree with you Julie, it's about how the animal is treated while they are alive and I wouldn't personally choose to wear real fur (but I do love my faux shearling centigrade coat). I wouldn't buy from Basso as I think he's slimey but it doesn't stop me buying from QVC.

Having read this thread I think whatever our viewpoints on here we all kind of share the same opinion about that man. It's all a matter of how far we choose to take it. I don't think we should make people who have bought Basso faux stuff feel bad though, they could've done it before this came to light or could be reconciled with what he does so long as they aren't wearing the product of that.

[Dips]

Well, I have to say that I think it is a great credit to our forum that we can have this discussion on such an emotive subject without it degenerating into personal attacks against someone who has a different view from your own. My view is that I do not want in anyway to support a man who takes great pride in being a furrier. However, I also very strongly believe that we live in democracy and with that comes the right to each have our own views on such matters. I also agree with Lorraine that I personally find images relating to this subject deeply upsetting and I wouldn't want to find them here, but it appears to be a moot point as no-one has tried to post any!

[Phree]

Yep, I have to agree that forum members deserve credit for not letting this sink into personal attacks and ad hominems, but have kept the discussion polite and respectful. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinon.........but heck if y'all don't agree wif me then I hope your ink pads dry up and your decoupage scissors go blunt :p

ooops lowered the tone a bit there :D

[blarf]

I agree ladies, this has been really a credit to us all - pat ourselves on the back :)